Don't worry Kstar, I'm not going to take pot shots at you here! (Grin)

> "It's up to the hiker to determine their own hiking ability." I
> absolutely agree with this statement.. but how does this apply to
> going after letterboxes with no description, rating, etc? I'm
> interpreting this to mean that only the most experienced, and
> strongest of hikers should go after the boxes with no terrain or
> difficulty information in the clue. Am I reading this wrong?

You've hit the nail on the head... Inherently, the problem with a 'rating'
system of any kind is that it can not cover all possibilities. What one
considers to be an Average hike, another would consider an Extreme hike. I
mean, a 5 mile hike in the meadow at Paradise Point on Mt. Rainer is not
something to be trifled with, by my standards, but I'm sure that to one such
as Master Carpenter, it's a piece of cake.

First and foremost, no rating system can be fostered off on anyone at all.
No one can do that, and frankly, the fact that some seem to think that
others are trying to make anyone do anything they don't want to is almost
ludicrous. The rating system I am using is a VOLUNTARY system. If you want
to use it, then rate your boxes with it, if you don't, then, please don't.
Simple as that. And, by not using it, you've made your choice about how
you're going to participate in this hobby, and that's just fine. I for one
am not going to not go after a box because it's not rated, nor because I
can't tell how difficult it may be to get to the vicinity of where it is
hidden. I'm a responsible adult, I can tell when and if things are beyond
my capabilities and not attempt them. I don't expect to be spoon fed, nor
do I expect that someone else, other than the placer, give me any special
help in locating where a particular box is located at. I do appericate any
warnings that might be given my way, by anyone, along the lines of "Be
careful, the hike's not condusive to your children." or "The hike looks
tougher than it really is.", etc, etc, etc. Nothing that, in my not so
humble opinion, ruins the placers intent of the letterbox.

But that's just me.... Seems to me that we have far to many that expect
otherwise and that, again, in my not so humble opinion, can ruin the intent
of the original placer.

> Onward;
> This may be opening a can of worms here.. and please don't hurt me,
> but, has anyone ever considered creating a letterbox listing
> specifically for target groups? It's entirely possible that this
> concept is only a fantasy and completely unrealistic.. but I'm just
> thinking out loud, and wanted to get a feel for what others may
> think about it. (standing here now with her arms crossed in front of
> her head, and her faced turned away)
>

As far as this, that's kinda what we're trying to do over at my website.
But I'll never force anyone to do, or attempt to force anyone to do,
anything they don't want to. But, hey..... That' just me. I'm not out to
take over the world. Far to much work is involved in doing that and then you
constantly have to look over your shoulder watching out for every two bit
hustler looking to make a name for themselves! (LOL!!!)

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-+> Steve of Team Rayvenhaus <+-
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After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself.
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Rayvenhaus, I would like to acknowleged you for the voluntary nature of the database
that you have created. Unlike some others that have been created, you are forcing no
one to have their boxes listed. Those who wish to be listed elsewhere besides the
LbNA site may do so. Those who wish to have additional information attached to their
clue may do so. Those of us who are not interested in either can opt out. I appreciate
the respect that you have shown in this situation. Funhog

My thanks funhog, that means much to me, very much.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-+> Steve of Team Rayvenhaus <+-
"We leave nothing but an image to mark our passage......"
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If it's in the rough, it's Golf! If it's in the bush, it's Letterboxing!!!
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> Rayvenhaus, I would like to acknowleged you for the voluntary nature of
the database
> that you have created. Unlike some others that have been created, you are
forcing no
> one to have their boxes listed. Those who wish to be listed elsewhere
besides the
> LbNA site may do so. Those who wish to have additional information
attached to their
> clue may do so. Those of us who are not interested in either can opt out.
I appreciate
> the respect that you have shown in this situation. Funhog

> I'm interpreting this to mean that only the most experienced, and
> strongest of hikers should go after the boxes with no terrain or
> difficulty information in the clue. Am I reading this wrong?

I tend to think so. Besides the obvious of looking up the trail
conditions on your own (Internet, trail guides, or even calling up
the rangers in charge of the trail in question for the most up-to-
date information possible), there's also the thought of knowing when
to cut your losses. If you do decide to go for a letterbox and the
trail turns out to be longer or harder or whatever, you've got to
set a mindset and say, "Hey, the sun will set in one hour. If I
don't find the letterbox in a half hour, I will turn back." That
seems like a common sense kind of idea, but you'd be surprised at
how many letterboxers have gotten caught out in the dark because
they keep thinking, "Just a little bit farther...." and can't give
up--even when their safety depends on it.

So, a clue with no terrain or difficulty information is okay.
Everyone can look for it. But as soon as one figures out that it's
a little out of their league, they should stop hunting down the
letterbox.

Notice I didn't say they should turn back. The trail might be
beautiful and a great afternoon walk and can still be enjoyed. But
if you only have time for a two-mile hike but the letterbox is five
miles away, enjoy the two-mile hike and forget the letterbox. It'll
still be there if you want to try again later. (Probably! *smile*)
You can still have an enjoyable time, even without a letterbox.

Yeah, I know, I'm too wordy. It's my curse.

> has anyone ever considered creating a letterbox listing
> specifically for target groups?

Actually, there ARE listings specifically for target groups. For
instance, Mischief has a page for all boxes in Washington. The
target group, obviously, being anyone that letterboxes in
Washington. I also have a lot of letterboxes listed on my website,
although the "target group" would be "people that want to find my
letterboxes".

Okay, I admit, they aren't exciting examples, but they do exist!
=) But with so many thousands of letterboxes out there, one could
make a good case for created specialized lists to help narrow down
the choices. A webpage with only "kid accessible" letterboxes. Or
another webpage for "real hikers" where the minimum hiking distance
to get a letterbox should be at least five miles. That sort of
stuff. I don't know of anyone taking the time to create such lists,
but I could see their usefulness.

If you can find someone to create and maintain such a list, I don't
see any problem with that. =)

In other news.... About Steve's difficulty rating: I'm not really
sure I understand what the fuss is about. Especially since it's
completely voluntary. If he wants to list such information on his
boxes, that's okay by me. And as long as he doesn't force me to
follow that system, that's okay by me too. =)

-- Ryan

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen" wrote:
> > I'm interpreting this to mean that only the most experienced, and
> > strongest of hikers should go after the boxes with no terrain or
> > difficulty information in the clue. Am I reading this wrong?
>
> I tend to think so.


Thanks Ryan, I didn't mean to downplay a person's hiking ability. Ryan
hit the nail on this one, it's definitely up to the boxer to determine
how far to push it so to speak.

I certainly don't claim any fantastic hiking ability and well, there
is a small river to cross for one of my bonus boxes, and I don't
outright state that. It could really deter people especially those
with kids, but again - I don't state that at all in my clue.

It's up to someone to decide whether or not it's a good decision to
cross a raging river in springtime in maine or come back later in the
season when things have dried up a bit. It's worth it to come back and
just decide not to get that "last box" rather than ever risk putting
yourself in jeopardy.